WEBVTT 00:00.000 --> 00:02.580 while doing so. 00:02.580 --> 00:07.680 OK, so I'm eager to hear what you have to tell us. 00:16.100 --> 00:17.020 The presentation? 00:17.020 --> 00:17.720 Yeah. 00:17.720 --> 00:19.520 Because I sent it. 00:19.520 --> 00:21.380 Absolutely not late, by the way. 00:21.380 --> 00:22.540 But I sent it. 00:22.540 --> 00:29.540 Should be a PDF. 00:29.540 --> 00:31.540 This one, yeah. 00:31.540 --> 00:51.040 That's a safe password. 00:51.040 --> 00:54.620 I completely looked away. I was like, 00:54.700 --> 00:58.620 nice wall, because I didn't want to... 01:01.380 --> 01:02.260 Does that work? 01:02.260 --> 01:32.240 Thank you. 01:32.260 --> 01:38.120 I mean, it's fine as long as I can. 01:41.120 --> 01:41.440 Okay. 01:43.440 --> 01:43.880 Good. 01:44.840 --> 01:45.260 Yeah, good. 01:46.280 --> 01:46.520 Okay. 01:51.200 --> 01:51.740 All right. 01:55.480 --> 01:56.600 Can everybody hear me? 01:56.640 --> 01:57.300 Is that fine? 01:57.420 --> 01:58.740 Is that perfect? 01:59.000 --> 01:59.680 Thank you so much. 02:00.600 --> 02:01.880 Hi, yeah, I'm Ingve. 02:01.880 --> 02:07.840 I'm going to talk to you about how to build serious games and preferably not lose your mind while doing so. 02:08.680 --> 02:14.880 A little bit about me. I did my bachelor's in media design with the main focus on game design 02:14.880 --> 02:20.480 in Hanover at the University of Applied Science and Arts. 02:21.240 --> 02:26.760 And I'm a project lead for serious games at Gentle Troll since 2022. 02:26.760 --> 02:35.140 I'm also, I have been a lecturer at the University of Applied Arts in Hanover for a short amount 02:35.140 --> 02:37.660 of time. 02:37.660 --> 02:40.440 And generally I am a producer and a programmer. 02:40.440 --> 02:46.320 I basically started out as a programmer, touch producing, and it kind of venomed onto me 02:46.320 --> 02:51.360 and didn't let go, so now I'm a project lead. 02:51.360 --> 02:56.200 A little bit about our company, or my company. 02:56.200 --> 02:59.480 We're called Gentle Troll, we're based in Würzburg, 02:59.480 --> 03:03.900 and we've been around since 2014, 03:03.900 --> 03:07.120 and we mainly build serious games, 03:07.120 --> 03:11.080 and we also make entertainment games. 03:11.080 --> 03:13.540 We are currently working on our first entertainment title, 03:13.540 --> 03:16.440 Tavern Talk, some might have heard of it, 03:17.820 --> 03:20.840 but yeah, I'm here to talk to you about 03:20.840 --> 03:24.600 the serious game area of what we're doing, 03:24.600 --> 03:28.900 which we've been doing since 2014. 03:28.900 --> 03:29.820 Yeah. 03:29.820 --> 03:31.780 If you want stickers from Tavern Talk though, 03:31.780 --> 03:36.280 I might have some, so catch me after the presentation 03:36.280 --> 03:37.740 and I can give you some. 03:38.680 --> 03:41.020 Yeah, a little bit about our projects. 03:41.020 --> 03:43.800 We have done a lot of projects over the years. 03:43.800 --> 03:47.740 I've brought four specifically for today. 03:48.760 --> 03:52.560 We mainly do projects that have 03:52.560 --> 03:57.880 a big focus on either environmental issues or societal issues. 03:59.560 --> 04:00.720 Most of the time. 04:00.880 --> 04:02.020 I'm saying most of the time. 04:02.280 --> 04:06.760 We also are working on learning tools for German 04:06.760 --> 04:08.520 and German as a second language. 04:08.520 --> 04:12.360 So specifically for people who come here 04:12.360 --> 04:14.600 and have to learn German quickly. 04:15.580 --> 04:17.640 So that's basically what we do. 04:17.640 --> 04:32.640 I have brought Glimpse, which is a project about environmental changes and what we can do to prevent them, which we've done in 2021. 04:32.640 --> 04:39.640 Then I've brought Nippo Missions, where I don't remember where we did that. I think it's been like three years ago, 04:39.640 --> 04:43.640 where you play a little robot and you learn how to program. 04:43.640 --> 04:47.640 And then we also made the game Exploria, 04:47.640 --> 04:53.640 which is a German learning tool, which we produced last year. 04:53.640 --> 04:59.640 And a project that pops up every time surrounding us, 04:59.640 --> 05:04.640 because we did it very early in our endeavors, 05:04.640 --> 05:08.640 is The Unstoppables, which is a game about four friends 05:08.640 --> 05:15.000 friends who have different types of disabilities and they have to protect 05:15.000 --> 05:21.240 and get back the guiding dog of our blind character Melissa and it's 05:21.240 --> 05:26.820 basically there to teach people about how our environment is more so built for 05:26.820 --> 05:32.820 people abled bodied people and not so much for people with disabilities to 05:32.820 --> 05:39.640 share awareness and basically show people what you can do to help people. 05:39.640 --> 05:50.000 Yeah. I'm gonna, just so you know, I'm gonna tell you about our approach to 05:50.000 --> 05:55.900 serious games. Obviously game development is very faceted and a lot of different 05:55.900 --> 06:01.140 projects can work in a wholly different way. This is our approach, this is what we 06:01.140 --> 06:05.780 do to make serious games, but if you have something that works that's totally fine too. 06:08.740 --> 06:12.020 I first want to talk about the learning environment. That's like the main 06:12.580 --> 06:17.300 meta thing that you have to think about or that we think about when we're building serious games. 06:18.500 --> 06:23.460 The learning environment should provide a set fix like a fixed set of rules. 06:23.460 --> 06:31.860 you have boundaries in which the exploration is safe. You can explore the content, you can 06:31.860 --> 06:38.280 interact with it, you can try things out and it's within these set type of boundaries, right? And 06:38.280 --> 06:43.620 because it's a virtual world, it's a virtual environment, it doesn't have that much negative 06:43.620 --> 06:50.420 consequences to your real life. So that it allows you to explore more and try out more. And by doing 06:50.420 --> 06:54.920 that, what happens is that you engage with the content you're trying to learn 06:54.920 --> 07:00.860 more and by doing that you will have a deeper connection and understanding of 07:00.860 --> 07:06.740 the topic at hand. And afterwards what you do is that you transfer the learned 07:06.740 --> 07:12.440 knowledge into your own everyday life. So the learning environment is the main 07:12.440 --> 07:19.820 focus of what we should think about. Okay. Whenever we start a new project 07:19.820 --> 07:25.260 there is a few main questions we have to answer and we will revisit these main 07:25.260 --> 07:31.500 questions over and over and over again in development. The main main main focus 07:31.500 --> 07:35.240 should be what will work for your content. You have to know your content, 07:35.240 --> 07:39.020 you have to know what you're trying to teach to be able to do a good project 07:39.020 --> 07:46.260 for that. The second most important answer, a question and these often fight 07:46.260 --> 07:51.120 with each other is what is doable with the budget and time because we're 07:51.120 --> 07:54.840 talking about serious games here so budget is not endless I mean it rarely 07:54.840 --> 08:00.120 is but especially in serious games you're probably working with with with 08:00.120 --> 08:05.340 people with universities museums clients who don't have that big of a budget and 08:05.340 --> 08:10.740 development is really expensive so second important question what is doable 08:10.740 --> 08:15.600 with your budget and your time frame and then of course what are your clients 08:15.600 --> 08:26.400 needs, if you have a client obviously, and what are the players needs. 08:26.400 --> 08:31.480 Depending on the content you can give, like your game can build a different frame for 08:31.480 --> 08:32.480 that content. 08:32.480 --> 08:39.180 Ideally, your project should be an environment, a frame where the content sits in nicely and 08:39.180 --> 08:41.720 invites the people to engage with it. 08:41.720 --> 08:43.820 You can build different types of frames. 08:43.820 --> 08:47.740 You can build a strong narrative frame or a mechanical frame. 08:47.740 --> 08:56.300 A mechanical frame is basically a very deep interwovenness with the content itself. 08:56.300 --> 09:01.480 So the gameplay mechanics base on the content itself. 09:01.480 --> 09:05.580 This allows for a much deeper interaction with it, but it's not always feasible and 09:05.580 --> 09:06.580 not always doable. 09:06.580 --> 09:08.760 It kind of depends on the content you're having. 09:08.760 --> 09:16.980 So if, for example, we're talking about which environmental measures can be taken to prevent 09:16.980 --> 09:25.180 a climate crisis, ideally, or at least help it, that makes sense to put into a mechanical 09:25.180 --> 09:27.520 frame because a lot of these things are set. 09:27.520 --> 09:32.460 Like there's certain measures you can take and you can put that into a mechanical frame 09:32.460 --> 09:35.340 because you can make gameplay out of this. 09:35.340 --> 09:40.340 Whereas if you're learning how to write German articles, 09:41.780 --> 09:44.060 or just German grammar in general, 09:44.060 --> 09:46.660 it's very hard to do over a mechanical frame, 09:46.660 --> 09:47.920 and you will have to build 09:47.920 --> 09:49.620 a stronger narrative frame for it. 09:50.680 --> 09:54.080 A narrative frame can, in turn, 09:54.080 --> 09:58.860 provide a very strong why am I here, why am I doing this? 09:58.860 --> 10:00.580 All of us have been to school, 10:00.580 --> 10:03.280 most of us know that if you just learn something 10:03.280 --> 10:06.040 and you never know where you're gonna use it, 10:06.040 --> 10:07.640 it's just, it sucks. 10:07.640 --> 10:09.780 It doesn't make sense for you to learn it. 10:10.880 --> 10:13.420 So what we're trying to do is give them a reason 10:13.420 --> 10:15.320 why they're here, why they're engaging with the content, 10:15.320 --> 10:16.620 why they have to learn it. 10:18.260 --> 10:19.700 Yeah, but both things, 10:19.700 --> 10:22.160 it's not either a narrative frame or a mechanical frame, 10:22.160 --> 10:25.040 it's spectrum, and your project should be somewhere 10:25.040 --> 10:27.040 within that spectrum. 10:27.040 --> 10:30.040 Both aspects need to be balanced, 10:30.040 --> 10:32.600 and they need to be balanced in a way that makes sense 10:32.600 --> 10:34.500 for the content you're trying to teach. 10:38.380 --> 10:41.100 The next thing is interaction. 10:41.100 --> 10:44.880 So how is the interaction of your player 10:44.880 --> 10:47.140 with your project or with your game? 10:47.140 --> 10:48.160 Is it more gamey? 10:48.160 --> 10:51.280 Like, does it very much feel like a video game 10:51.280 --> 10:53.660 or is it more tasky and feels a little bit more 10:53.660 --> 10:55.700 like a digitalized learning book? 10:57.440 --> 11:00.080 What we have found is that the gamey approach 11:00.080 --> 11:03.380 often works better for the target audiences 11:03.380 --> 11:05.100 that we're trying to reach, 11:05.100 --> 11:06.380 because most of the time, 11:06.380 --> 11:08.140 it's gonna be younger people, right? 11:09.960 --> 11:12.780 But considering the budget and the client needs, 11:13.780 --> 11:14.780 that's not always feasible. 11:14.780 --> 11:16.440 That's not always how it works. 11:17.420 --> 11:19.080 Especially if you have clients 11:19.080 --> 11:22.080 who are a bit more on the traditional side 11:22.080 --> 11:25.320 and don't have much connection points to the media itself, 11:25.320 --> 11:26.540 it can be kind of hard 11:26.540 --> 11:30.720 because you're already trying to show them 11:30.720 --> 11:33.020 what a video game can do. 11:33.020 --> 11:35.520 So that is already scary for them. 11:35.520 --> 11:38.820 So by moving it a little bit more to the tasky 11:38.820 --> 11:41.760 or the digital learning book side, 11:41.760 --> 11:44.160 you can elevate a lot of these fears. 11:45.820 --> 11:48.140 But it's always gonna be a balance. 11:48.140 --> 11:49.960 Again, it's a spectrum. 11:49.960 --> 11:51.980 It's always, it has to be a balance 11:51.980 --> 11:54.040 and you have to make sure that your approach 11:54.040 --> 11:58.940 fits your content and is doable. 11:58.940 --> 12:05.280 So if we look at this and put it on a graph, it would look something like this. 12:05.280 --> 12:13.280 So for example, you can have a game that is very gamey and kind of in the middle between 12:13.280 --> 12:17.720 narrative and mechanical, and you would have our game The Unstoppables, which is basically 12:17.720 --> 12:23.760 a puzzle game that has an equal amount of focus on mechanics and narrative. 12:23.760 --> 12:29.920 Or you could have a game like our German learning game where the content is really hard to put 12:29.920 --> 12:31.600 into mechanics. 12:31.600 --> 12:38.380 So we build a very strong narrative frame around that to enable the player to still 12:38.380 --> 12:41.380 have a good experience while playing the game. 12:41.380 --> 12:48.120 And then if you do a very mechanical game and a more gamey game, you will have our Klims, 12:48.120 --> 12:51.920 which is our climate change environmental game. 12:51.920 --> 12:52.920 Yeah. 12:52.920 --> 12:54.920 Yeah. 12:54.920 --> 12:57.920 And your project, ideally, if you want to use these, 12:57.920 --> 13:00.920 should fall somewhere in there. 13:04.920 --> 13:08.920 For your players, it's really important that you have connection points. 13:08.920 --> 13:12.920 Because it's not a given that the content itself 13:12.920 --> 13:14.920 will be a strong connection point. 13:14.920 --> 13:18.920 When we're choosing entertainment titles to play, 13:18.920 --> 13:21.920 what happens usually is, hey, I really love Stardew Valley, 13:21.920 --> 13:28.560 Valley. So if I like this, I'm going to play the next farming sim that's maybe also pixely and 13:28.560 --> 13:32.720 really cute and I love that. It's great. I have this connection point over the content, over the 13:32.720 --> 13:40.400 genre, over the community maybe even. But there's a high chance we won't have that here. But we have 13:40.400 --> 13:45.760 other connection points that we can use. For example, we can use characters as connection 13:45.760 --> 13:51.440 points. And so far this has proved to be the strongest connection point in our projects with 13:51.440 --> 13:58.080 our target audience. If you have attractive and I don't mean like beautiful, I mean like interesting 13:58.080 --> 14:04.800 characters, multifaceted characters, people will react to that. People will want to learn more 14:04.800 --> 14:12.480 about these characters. This works especially well in a narrative frame. And another connection point 14:12.480 --> 14:20.080 that's kind of combined with that is that you have similar lived experiences of your target audience 14:20.080 --> 14:22.940 for your themes or your sub-themes. 14:23.720 --> 14:25.960 Obviously, the main content you cannot change. 14:26.500 --> 14:28.660 But if you have some sub-themes in there 14:28.660 --> 14:31.400 that people in your target audience will adhere to, 14:31.620 --> 14:32.920 that can help you make a connection. 14:34.840 --> 14:37.620 Another thing is just having an interesting environment 14:37.620 --> 14:38.920 or an interesting setting, 14:39.160 --> 14:41.040 which can also be a strong pull factor. 14:42.040 --> 14:44.780 And yeah, just mechanics that are fun. 14:45.620 --> 14:46.060 Fun. 14:46.420 --> 14:48.220 But fun is very hard to facilitate. 14:48.860 --> 14:49.940 It's very hard to build. 14:50.080 --> 14:54.080 And especially if you're on a tight budget and a tight timeframe, 14:54.080 --> 14:58.080 that can be a harder connection point to achieve. 14:58.080 --> 15:04.080 And it's very, very depending on the context where your game is going to be played. 15:04.080 --> 15:07.080 If you're in a lesson and you're basically forced to do something, 15:07.080 --> 15:12.080 there's a high chance it's not going to be that fun in the beginning. 15:12.080 --> 15:16.080 So it always depends on the context and the content itself. 15:16.080 --> 15:23.080 Next up is motivation points, motivation types. You probably all know the game of 15:23.080 --> 15:28.140 motivation model by Quantic Foundry. If not, have a look at that, that's cool. 15:28.140 --> 15:34.320 What we've learned is that the social part of it, the social, the 15:34.320 --> 15:38.600 competition part is less helpful for long-term learning and retention, 15:38.600 --> 15:44.340 especially the retention part. It can be a very big motivator and it can work 15:44.340 --> 15:49.800 well in groups but your content has to allow for that because what happens is 15:49.800 --> 15:55.860 that you're often your players will play for quick wins because they want to win 15:55.860 --> 16:01.680 in the competition and quick wins don't always mean that you will think the 16:01.680 --> 16:07.380 whole topic through thoroughly so it doesn't allow for us for as a big or as 16:07.380 --> 16:14.100 a deep connection to the content itself what we found is works really well is 16:14.100 --> 16:20.260 is the creativity archetype and the achievement and the immersion people. So people who seek for 16:20.260 --> 16:28.660 immersion, people who seek for achievements as in strategists or completionists, they work very well 16:28.660 --> 16:37.860 with serious games. So for your project be aware of what types of motivation types you're trying 16:37.860 --> 16:45.700 to cater to or have to cater to. As I said, social competition, very strong motivator, 16:45.700 --> 16:53.860 doesn't work for every content. All right. And then, of course, you have to take into 16:53.860 --> 16:59.220 consideration what's the play context of your game going to be. So, mainly, where is your game going 16:59.220 --> 17:03.860 to be played at? Is it going to be in a museum? Is it going to be part of a lesson? Is it going to be 17:03.860 --> 17:11.860 at home in like solo play nobody's around and that determines how your game needs to be structured 17:12.980 --> 17:18.980 and how your game is going to be played will have to be reflected in the series game itself 17:20.500 --> 17:26.420 it's important whether your game is going to play be played in a group or whether if it's in a group 17:26.420 --> 17:32.100 there's going to be a reflection round afterwards or if that reflection only happens internally 17:33.860 --> 17:39.700 We have to know that so that we can ensure that the transfer of knowledge that we have taught 17:39.700 --> 17:47.860 the people playing our game does get transferred into their real life. So we may have to provide 17:47.860 --> 17:54.340 more feedback or more of a reaction in our learning environment than when it's just part 17:54.340 --> 17:57.620 in the lesson and we have a reflection around everything is super like build up. 17:59.140 --> 18:03.460 If people are gonna just play this at home you have to give them feedback so they can transfer 18:03.460 --> 18:13.420 the knowledge back. Yeah, so that's been like a very rough how do we approach projects like 18:13.420 --> 18:23.080 this. The next part is about how you work with people and clients and the main things 18:23.080 --> 18:28.840 that you have to consider when working with clients. Because it's all about communication, 18:28.840 --> 18:38.120 trust and expertise. Your main focus has to be that you have to build bridges if you're 18:38.120 --> 18:41.720 working with clients because it's very likely that you will work with clients who have no 18:41.720 --> 18:47.760 idea what a video game is or maybe have a very faint idea what a video game is. But 18:47.760 --> 18:53.000 what they have is expertise in the content you're trying to teach. So you have two completely 18:53.000 --> 18:58.080 different aisles of expertise and you have to build bridges in between them. The bridges 18:58.080 --> 19:03.920 you have to build is first of all between the client and the medium itself 19:03.920 --> 19:09.820 then between your different areas of expertise you have the development 19:09.820 --> 19:14.460 expertise they have the content expertise and it needs both to work in 19:14.460 --> 19:20.520 your game and of course there's a high chance that you and your team will work 19:20.520 --> 19:29.680 differently than let's say a university for example or a stiftung what's the name for that 19:29.680 --> 19:37.540 the english word stiftung foundation they will work very differently to you so you have to bridge 19:37.540 --> 19:44.960 that as well mainly you will always have to keep in mind that your expertise at the end is here to 19:44.960 --> 19:49.400 help the client make informed decision because if they're the ones giving you money to do that 19:49.400 --> 19:51.400 they're the ones who make the calls. 19:51.400 --> 19:55.400 And for them to be able to make these calls comfortably, 19:55.400 --> 19:59.400 you have to inform them, you have to give them your expertise 19:59.400 --> 20:03.400 in a good way so that they can make informed decisions. 20:05.400 --> 20:09.400 So become good communicators, it's really important. 20:10.400 --> 20:14.400 Yeah, and then what's also important is that you're building trust. 20:14.400 --> 20:18.400 One main thing about that is learn about the subject. 20:18.400 --> 20:24.000 you will have a much easier time finding a fitting frame for the content to sit in, 20:24.000 --> 20:28.720 if you know what the content is and if you know what people who learn the content struggle with 20:28.720 --> 20:34.320 when they have to learn it. It also enables you to prioritize better because you understand what's 20:34.320 --> 20:39.840 important and what's not so important in the content. And then of course you can benefit 20:39.840 --> 20:45.520 from your clients because they know, ideally, they know what they're talking about and they know the 20:45.520 --> 20:48.200 the topic they're trying to put into this game. 20:48.200 --> 20:50.140 At the end of the day, it's teamwork, 20:50.140 --> 20:53.500 and you can learn from them as they can learn from you. 20:53.500 --> 20:58.100 So I think the biggest takeaway from this part 20:58.100 --> 21:01.300 is that transparent communication builds trust. 21:02.380 --> 21:04.300 And trust builds the needed bridge 21:04.300 --> 21:06.880 between both of your areas of expertise, 21:06.880 --> 21:09.180 and your serious game will need both. 21:09.180 --> 21:18.840 And then lastly, it is really important to prioritize well. 21:18.840 --> 21:21.920 And that's easier said than done. 21:21.920 --> 21:24.780 You will have to accept certain limitations. 21:24.780 --> 21:32.220 Your budget and your timeframe will very likely not be kind to you or your project. 21:32.220 --> 21:39.500 And there are some things that are worth, more worth keeping than others. 21:39.500 --> 21:45.580 That kind of correlates with the fact that you and your client will sometimes have different 21:45.580 --> 21:48.440 needs and these needs will be conflicting. 21:48.440 --> 21:52.160 Because your job is it that you have the game in mind. 21:52.160 --> 21:54.740 And their job is that they have the content in mind. 21:54.740 --> 21:59.180 So by default, it will sometimes happen that you say, okay, it has to be A and they will 21:59.180 --> 22:01.120 say it has to be B. 22:01.120 --> 22:06.000 And what needs to happen is that you will have to find good compromises 22:06.000 --> 22:12.080 and you have to be aware on which side might have more expertise on a specific point 22:12.080 --> 22:14.400 and you have to communicate to that point. 22:14.400 --> 22:18.080 So if it's something content related, for example, 22:18.080 --> 22:20.240 but you say, but a game doesn't work like that, 22:20.240 --> 22:26.760 but they say the content needs to be correct or otherwise we teach bullcrap, 22:26.760 --> 22:29.840 they might have more expertise in this moment. 22:29.840 --> 22:43.100 But if they say, but I really like it more if that button is super transparent and it's black font on a dark, dark, dark grey background. 22:43.100 --> 22:48.160 And you're like, you know, maybe, maybe I have a little bit more experience in this. 22:48.680 --> 22:51.580 So I'm going to explain to you why that's stupid. 22:53.400 --> 22:54.960 I'm trying not to swear right now. 22:55.040 --> 22:56.240 This is me not swearing, actually. 22:56.240 --> 23:03.500 Basically it boils down to don't let the hill you die on be a discussion about a 23:03.500 --> 23:09.680 button color. There's a lot more important things to fight about I'd say, 23:09.680 --> 23:19.640 not fight but to defend. Yeah that's basically the, yeah. So to just recap how 23:19.640 --> 23:23.900 do you not lose your mind while building serious games? Find a good frame that 23:23.900 --> 23:29.800 works for your content, be open and find a point of connection or interest in that subject 23:29.800 --> 23:36.280 for yourself, find a good way to communicate and pick your battles wisely. 23:36.280 --> 23:39.780 And most importantly, have fun. 23:39.780 --> 23:42.780 Okay, questions? 23:42.780 --> 23:51.660 Okay, thank you very much for your interesting talk. 23:51.660 --> 23:54.860 Yeah, other questions from the audience? 23:54.860 --> 23:56.860 Yeah, sure. 23:56.860 --> 24:00.860 Thank you for a very interesting presentation. 24:00.860 --> 24:04.360 You're addressing very important problems, games that have a purpose, 24:04.360 --> 24:06.360 and we need to make sure this purpose happens. 24:06.360 --> 24:09.660 Now, I teach people things, and that's hard. 24:09.660 --> 24:10.660 Yeah. 24:10.660 --> 24:12.660 And I wonder how the process starts with you. 24:12.660 --> 24:15.860 Like, I can't come to you and say, you know, he has 500 pages of PDF, 24:15.860 --> 24:18.360 how do you do computer graphics, teach that in a game. 24:18.360 --> 24:19.360 No. 24:19.360 --> 24:20.360 How does it start? 24:20.360 --> 24:24.020 No, I can assure you most of the time they don't. 24:24.020 --> 24:28.380 What happens usually is that people have a rough concept 24:28.380 --> 24:30.000 of what they're trying to do. 24:30.000 --> 24:33.860 And sometimes that is something we can do and use. 24:33.860 --> 24:35.920 And sometimes that's like, 24:35.920 --> 24:39.380 here have 30,000 and do a multiplayer game. 24:39.380 --> 24:42.520 So it's very different because your clients 24:42.520 --> 24:47.160 will have different points of knowledge, 24:47.160 --> 24:48.760 how your development works. 24:48.760 --> 24:59.760 So what usually happens, like our go-to workflow is that we will get their pitch, like what they're trying to do. 24:59.760 --> 25:04.760 We will give them a very rough concept and say, hey, that's what we can do. 25:04.760 --> 25:13.760 And afterwards, we're going to have a workshop where we usually drive out there or do it digitally and talk to them 25:13.760 --> 25:18.760 and basically try to find out what they really want and what's really important to them. 25:18.760 --> 25:21.900 Because we have, as I said, we have to bridge 25:21.900 --> 25:24.100 us not knowing much about the problem 25:24.100 --> 25:26.500 and them not knowing much about the development. 25:26.500 --> 25:31.140 So a workshop can really help to brainstorm ideas 25:31.140 --> 25:34.480 and find out what is it that this project really needs. 25:34.480 --> 25:36.680 And ideally, that's also the point where 25:36.680 --> 25:39.000 most of these questions will at least 25:39.000 --> 25:40.960 get a first answer for. 25:40.960 --> 25:42.840 Does that answer it? 25:42.840 --> 25:43.680 I guess so. 25:43.680 --> 25:44.520 Okay. 25:44.520 --> 25:45.360 Thank you. 25:45.360 --> 25:46.400 Yeah. 25:46.400 --> 25:49.480 but also you have to constantly talk to people. 25:49.480 --> 25:50.560 Some more questions? 25:55.080 --> 25:56.960 It doesn't seem so. 25:56.960 --> 26:00.620 So thank you very much. 26:00.620 --> 26:04.400 You presented a lot of conflicting situations 26:04.400 --> 26:07.440 you run into when you do serious games. 26:07.440 --> 26:11.900 And yeah, it's really a good idea to be aware of this 26:11.900 --> 26:16.480 and to make really decisions 26:16.480 --> 26:19.220 and not let it go and see at the end what it was. 26:21.140 --> 26:24.840 Take the decisions and plan correctly. 26:24.840 --> 26:27.020 And so again, thank you very much. 26:27.020 --> 26:28.620 Yeah, thank you for having me.